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    Iron Heart Fall/Winter 2025 Live Reveal - Thursday 12th of June at 1700BST

    Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language

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    • Walery SmirnoffW
      Walery Smirnoff
      The Unwoven
      Joined:

      funny of course. We do not hear our native language from the outside and perceive it as given. And foreigners cover their ears and swear))

      last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • mclaincauseyM
        mclaincausey
        見習いボス
        Joined:

        I love how Japanese translators convert “selvage” to “cell bitch”

        Think it, be it.

        last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
        • EzaE
          Eza
          Joined:

          Canadian here and question for the Brits do you call a tv remote a doofer? or is that someone pulling my leg?

          last edited by I DeeDee85D 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • MattM
            Matt
            見習いボス
            @mclaincausey
            Joined:

            @mclaincausey said in Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language:

            Ambiguous: I invited my parents, Alice and Bob

            Clear: I invited my parents, Alice, and Bob

            Beyond that it just makes more sense syntactically if you think about the function of a comma.

            QED

            I invited my parents, Alice and Bob. Next?

            last edited by mclaincauseyM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • popvultureP
              popvulture
              見習いボス
              Joined:

              I used to be a stalwart anti Oxford comma person but came around because a proofreader friend of mine is basically my Yoda of grammar and convinced me. I got used to it.

              There’s also the fact that being anti is a minority opinion and it just gets annoying as fuck always having to hear people give you the spiel.

              WTB
              IHSH-IHG-BLK XXL
              Sugar Cane Coke Stripe SS L charcoal

              last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • mclaincauseyM
                mclaincausey
                見習いボス
                @Matt
                Joined:

                @Matt you’ve played into the problem. Because I know you don’t use an Oxford comma, your intent is ambiguous. Are you saying you invited your parents, whose names are Alice and Bob, or are you saying you invited your parents along with non-parents Alice and Bob?

                You’ve just reiterated my point here.

                Think it, be it.

                last edited by mclaincausey MattM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • mclaincauseyM
                  mclaincausey
                  見習いボス
                  Joined:

                  Generally, arbitrary exceptions generate confusion. That’s another reason skipping the final serial comma in a list doesn’t make syntactic sense. It’s just another stupid thing to have to think about. I’m all about simplicity.

                  Think it, be it.

                  last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • pechelmanP
                    pechelman
                    啓蒙家
                    Joined:

                    Can't help but think this is a softball for a joke?

                    Ambiguous and potentially very concerning; Matt likes pegging, his jeans and his dog.

                    Clear but still a little concerning; Matt likes pegging, his jeans, and his dog.

                    last edited by MattM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                    • mclaincauseyM
                      mclaincausey
                      見習いボス
                      Joined:

                      🤣 this is a case where no comma is best.

                      Think it, be it.

                      last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • I
                        IrishHeart
                        Haraki san Expert
                        @Eza
                        Joined:

                        @Eza not in our house and I’ve not heard anyone else using it either.

                        last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                        • MattM
                          Matt
                          見習いボス
                          @mclaincausey
                          Joined:

                          @mclaincausey said in Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language:

                          @Matt you’ve played into the problem. Because I know you don’t use an Oxford comma, your intent is ambiguous. Are you saying you invited your parents, whose names are Alice and Bob, or are you saying you invited your parents along with non-parents Alice and Bob?

                          You’ve just reiterated my point here.

                          If my parents were Alice and Bob I would have used a colon, but I used a comma correctly instead. Much like I did just now before the coordinating conjunction where it actually belongs.

                          last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • EdHE
                            EdH
                            Iron Heart Deity
                            Joined:

                            @Eza said in Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language:

                            for the Brits do you call a tv remote a doofer?

                            In my house, by the time either Mrs H or myself are thinking about watching any TV, we are too mentally drained from jobs and putting Baby H to bed to call any object, person, location, mineral, category, etc, anything other than "thingy".

                            Example sentences which can be uttered and understood in my house after 8pm:
                            "Pass me that thingy."
                            "Next thingy we've got that thingy with thingy and thingy."
                            "My thingy has been acting up lately, I might make a thingy to see my thingy."

                            When we are mentally cognisant though, no, we don't call TV remotes doofers...

                            Having said that, I note that it is the top-rated definition for "doofer" on urban dictionary, so there must be some truth to it.

                            Take the dive...

                            last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • MattM
                              Matt
                              見習いボス
                              @pechelman
                              Joined:

                              @pechelman said in Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language:

                              Can't help but think this is a softball for a joke?

                              Ambiguous and potentially very concerning; Matt likes pegging, his jeans and his dog.

                              Clear but still a little concerning; Matt likes pegging, his jeans, and his dog.

                              Again, a colon would clear this up, not an unnecessary comma.

                              last edited by mclaincauseyM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • pechelmanP
                                pechelman
                                啓蒙家
                                Joined:

                                a colon would clear up confusion about pegging

                                last edited by endoE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                • mclaincauseyM
                                  mclaincausey
                                  見習いボス
                                  Joined:

                                  💀

                                  Think it, be it.

                                  last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                  • mclaincauseyM
                                    mclaincausey
                                    見習いボス
                                    @Matt
                                    Joined:

                                    @Matt said in Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language:

                                    @pechelman said in Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language:

                                    Can't help but think this is a softball for a joke?

                                    Ambiguous and potentially very concerning; Matt likes pegging, his jeans and his dog.

                                    Clear but still a little concerning; Matt likes pegging, his jeans, and his dog.

                                    Again, a colon would clear this up, not an unnecessary comma.

                                    Assuming you mean the punctuation, and understanding that this is a flawed example, how would a colon be helpful in resolving ambiguity here? All that does is introduce the list; any ambiguity from skipping the final serial comma is unresolved.

                                    The point in consistency isn’t that the final comma is strictly necessary to understand a given sentence. It’s that the consistency means that when sentences would become ambiguous without the final comma you know exactly what is meant. That’s why the AP approach of only including the last comma when needed to disambiguate a sentence’s meaning is a flawed approach. A global standard puts an end to the problem.

                                    Think it, be it.

                                    last edited by mclaincausey MattM pechelmanP 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • MattM
                                      Matt
                                      見習いボス
                                      Joined:

                                      If punctuation isn’t necessary then it’s clutter.

                                      last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • MattM
                                        Matt
                                        見習いボス
                                        @mclaincausey
                                        Joined:

                                        @mclaincausey said in Nuances and Idiosyncrasies of the English Language:

                                        A global standard puts an end to the problem.

                                        Fascist

                                        last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • mclaincauseyM
                                          mclaincausey
                                          見習いボス
                                          Joined:

                                          The point is that the punctuation is necessary. It’s a single character. The counter arguments are nonsense like “restructure your sentence “ instead of just documenting language as it is spoken in text.

                                          Anyway, I win 🤣

                                          Think it, be it.

                                          last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • Tago MagoT
                                            Tago Mago
                                            Mod Squad
                                            Joined:

                                            I'm waiting for @Matt to say that you don't

                                            last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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