Brexshit
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I have yet to see anything good come out of it for the UK or the EU
Yeah, fair cop. I'd count the fact that our (useless) politicians are at least answerable to us for the laws/policies they make to be a benefit in an of itself - at least, they no longer have the excuse of saying "that's an EU thing we can't change" - but appreciate that that's intangible. It puts the onus back on us to vote in the next lot.
The only other thing that springs immediately to mind is that the UK had a better Covid-vaccine procurement programme that the EU's, which did things collectively on behalf of its Member States (if I recall correctly we were offered to join it as we were still in the Transition Period). But in fairness examining that whole mess is probably a question for a PhD thesis, as so many countries took different approaches to lockdowns and have different healthcare systems it's probably quite hard to unpick whether the UK got any benefits from the fact that it got started on vaccinations a couple of months ahead of the EU.
The fact it's harder to ship to Calais that NYC is absurd. Is that down to the UK's decisions/position post-Brexit, or the EU's? (I honestly don't know; it's not a rhetorical question.)
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Is that down to the UK's decisions/position post-Brexit, or the EU's? (I honestly don't know; it's not a rhetorical question.)
I'd say it's a combination of a hard negotiating stance by the EU as deterrent against possible future leavers as well as hubris and ineptitude on the UK's side:
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@EdH thanks for this contribution. I (still) have friends and colleagues from both sides and most (although not all) thought deeply before voting. I think with hindsight that the biggest problem was that “all we were asked was to put a cross in a box on a piece of paper”, with insufficient consideration of what might come next. Where we ended up is perhaps somewhat different to what seemed to be on offer in 2016.
For me perhaps the biggest lost opportunity is the chance to be part of and influence the development of the new Unified Patent Court system. Admittedly a slightly niche interest which will hit my younger colleagues harder (I was “grandfathered in” as a UPC representative but they will need additional qualifications obtained outside the UK).
[Note: Some additional posts came in as I was writing this, so some of my thoughts may have already been covered.]
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I agree that our approach to Covid vaccination procurement was brilliant compared to others, and had we been part of The EEC our ability to wing it and go our own way would have been severely compromised.
Much of the increase in difficulty in shipping to The EU is because frankly most of the EU is butt hurt that we left ,and many member countries are "making us pay" for that. But also the massive increase in paperwork and effort that the shipping companies have to spend as a result of Brexit, comes at a cost - a cost that is passed down to us.
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Haha @goosehd
I wish I could join you all for drinks and a good discussion!
I’ve enjoyed reading this dialogue immensely and sort of wish that we were able to have civil discourse about the state of US politics in the same vein. But I know that ain’t ever gonna happen, and it’s probably best for the sanctity of the forum that we always leave that third rail alone.
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@sabergirl
️ One day my friend! -
To put in a word for the EU (as a political system): I lived and worked in 4 European countries, including 3 years in the UK (made possible by it then being in the EU). I now work for the European Environment Agency, a independent EU agency where 300 dedicated colleagues from 36 countries work together for the shared European Environment. Knowing the system from the inside, I would plea that with all justified criticism, the positive aspects are not forgotten! I have yet to meet the caricature of the entitled, undemocratic EU bureaucrat. Withdrawing from environmental cooperation and networks was a HUGE loss for both the UK and EU, and the shared cause of keeping this planet a livable place.
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A few days after the Brexit vote, I had to be in. Berlin. I bumped into a German friend (one of the most intelligent and open-minded people I know) who was having a coffee at a streetside cafe, I was not in a rush, so I joined him for a drink.
His first retort was "Oh Giles, what have you done?" After I rather pitifully and pathetically blamed it on everyone else but me, he went on to say, "You know, The EU was Germanys' gift to Europe, it was our attempt to bring peace and harmony to all European nations as atonement for some of the awful things we had done to Europe throughout the 20th century, and we feel butt-hurt and devastated that the UK has basically said "you can fuck right off to the olive branch we proffered."...
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One of the things that made a huge impact on me growing up was the fall of the Berlin Wall, the democratization of former Bloc countries, and the EU working together for mutual benefits...I thought if that many countries could find some type of agreement, then the rest of the world could do the same...
I still have hope...
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Not a UK citizen, but in many ways I sympathise with the principle @EdH presents, and I think I would have been inclined to vote the same. As it happens I also have a law degree (master's), which perhaps has some bearing on it.
Here in Norway (while not a member of the EU) as a result of the EEA agreement we have to abide by EU legislation to a large extent, while having very little influence over it. Which I personally find to be 'not-even-close-to-democratic-enough-for-me'.
Back to denim talk now
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@Tobi so you're the one to blame for my motorcycles and cars exhaust sounding like crap now... ahahahahaha
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@louisbosco nope.. this is coming from Brussels (but underpinned by a lot of research on the health effects of traffic noise). I map forests and such from satellite images to help keep track of greenhouse gas emissions and removals from land use
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@EdH of all the articles written in favour of leaving the EU, you have given the most compelling and articulate argument that I have read, so thank you for that.
I still remain firmly of the belief that the advantages of remaining within the EU massively outweighed the disadvantages.One other area ( close to my own heart) was that I can’t see that any proper consideration was given to how we would trade with the island of Ireland. Anything that was likely to jeopardise the hard fought Good Friday Agreement would be a huge price to pay.
