Brexshit
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To put in a word for the EU (as a political system): I lived and worked in 4 European countries, including 3 years in the UK (made possible by it then being in the EU). I now work for the European Environment Agency, a independent EU agency where 300 dedicated colleagues from 36 countries work together for the shared European Environment. Knowing the system from the inside, I would plea that with all justified criticism, the positive aspects are not forgotten! I have yet to meet the caricature of the entitled, undemocratic EU bureaucrat. Withdrawing from environmental cooperation and networks was a HUGE loss for both the UK and EU, and the shared cause of keeping this planet a livable place.
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A few days after the Brexit vote, I had to be in. Berlin. I bumped into a German friend (one of the most intelligent and open-minded people I know) who was having a coffee at a streetside cafe, I was not in a rush, so I joined him for a drink.
His first retort was "Oh Giles, what have you done?" After I rather pitifully and pathetically blamed it on everyone else but me, he went on to say, "You know, The EU was Germanys' gift to Europe, it was our attempt to bring peace and harmony to all European nations as atonement for some of the awful things we had done to Europe throughout the 20th century, and we feel butt-hurt and devastated that the UK has basically said "you can fuck right off to the olive branch we proffered."...
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One of the things that made a huge impact on me growing up was the fall of the Berlin Wall, the democratization of former Bloc countries, and the EU working together for mutual benefits...I thought if that many countries could find some type of agreement, then the rest of the world could do the same...
I still have hope...
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Not a UK citizen, but in many ways I sympathise with the principle @EdH presents, and I think I would have been inclined to vote the same. As it happens I also have a law degree (master's), which perhaps has some bearing on it.
Here in Norway (while not a member of the EU) as a result of the EEA agreement we have to abide by EU legislation to a large extent, while having very little influence over it. Which I personally find to be 'not-even-close-to-democratic-enough-for-me'.
Back to denim talk now
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@Tobi so you're the one to blame for my motorcycles and cars exhaust sounding like crap now... ahahahahaha
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@louisbosco nope.. this is coming from Brussels (but underpinned by a lot of research on the health effects of traffic noise). I map forests and such from satellite images to help keep track of greenhouse gas emissions and removals from land use
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@EdH of all the articles written in favour of leaving the EU, you have given the most compelling and articulate argument that I have read, so thank you for that.
I still remain firmly of the belief that the advantages of remaining within the EU massively outweighed the disadvantages.One other area ( close to my own heart) was that I can’t see that any proper consideration was given to how we would trade with the island of Ireland. Anything that was likely to jeopardise the hard fought Good Friday Agreement would be a huge price to pay.
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@Giles agreed, but the potential fall out could have been enormous.
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and also when scotland had there vote on independence they were persuaded to stay in the uk or they would be left out of the eu which they very much wanted to remain in.
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@Tago-Mago love the video
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@Tago-Mago From memory, Wales also was overall Leave (52.5%) and in line with the national vote. NI was marginally in favour of Remain (55.8%). Scotland was the outlier recording something like 62% in favour of Remain.
@gazza61 Well, 62% of them wanted to stay in. 38% wanted to leave. That's more "very much wanted" than the rest of the UK, I suppose, but not by 'very much'.
I've never understood the SNP's position on this... they want to leave the UK, in favour of a super-national organisation where the Scots would be even smaller fish in a much larger school (comparatively). Polling I've seen of SNP voters suggests that, in 2016, they were more inclined to vote Leave than non-SNP voters (funny that nationalists wouldn't be in favour of globalisation/super-national bodies...).
My, admittedly cynical, read on it is that Sturgeon and her Party jumped on the fact that, as a country, Scotland had the largest Remain majority (if you ignore Gibraltar) to bolster their argument for leaving the UK purely to attract Remain voters, while those that would want a fully independent Scotland realised that leaving the UK and joining the EU would be separate votes and arguments.
Ultimately I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't say that this is something the Scots should have the right to decide for themselves, but I don't think you can just re-run referenda ad-infinitem until you get the result you want. For one thing you'd have no comeback to the person who comes along afterwards and says "best of three"?
(Also, as an aside and at the risk of going off topic, the SNP's rhetoric doesn't play well South of the wall either. Multiple of my English family members have asked "when do we get a vote on whether we want to kick out Scotland?" around the dinner table whenever Scottish Independence has been in the news cycle again. But I suppose that that suits the SNP's purposes just as well.)
Edit: realised I could just go and look up the actual voting proportions on Wikipedia, so I've put accurate voting data in the above.
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@EdH I'm aware that Brexit wasn't a case of "the English" dragging the rest of the UK out of the EU kicking and screaming against their will. I was merely pointing out, maybe not as articulately as is required for such a complicated and multi-faceted topic, that coverage of Brexit from my perspective focused heavily on England and failed to adequately address a number of issues that affected all other parts of the UK as well, or in some cases exclusively affected them, e.g. Northern Ireland as mentioned above. But that might be an indictment of the quality of reporting or my selective perception in the lead-up to the referendum