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    • TobiT
      Tobi
      Haraki san Prodigy
      @louisbosco
      Joined:

      @louisbosco nope.. this is coming from Brussels (but underpinned by a lot of research on the health effects of traffic noise). I map forests and such from satellite images to help keep track of greenhouse gas emissions and removals from land use 🙂

      last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
      • I
        IrishHeart
        Haraki san Expert
        @EdH
        Joined:

        @EdH of all the articles written in favour of leaving the EU, you have given the most compelling and articulate argument that I have read, so thank you for that.
        I still remain firmly of the belief that the advantages of remaining within the EU massively outweighed the disadvantages.

        One other area ( close to my own heart) was that I can’t see that any proper consideration was given to how we would trade with the island of Ireland. Anything that was likely to jeopardise the hard fought Good Friday Agreement would be a huge price to pay.

        last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • GilesG
          Giles
          IHUK Crew
          Joined:

          Not sure anyone gave any thought to Ireland prior to the vote, it certainly was not articulated if it was.....

          "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

          last edited by I 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • I
            IrishHeart
            Haraki san Expert
            @Giles
            Joined:

            @Giles agreed, but the potential fall out could have been enormous.

            last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • Tago MagoT
              Tago Mago
              Mod Squad
              Joined:

              From the outside it did appear a very anglocentric conversation with little to no regard for the other 3 nations

              last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • GilesG
                Giles
                IHUK Crew
                Joined:

                Erm, is that not the way :-)?

                "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

                last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Tago MagoT
                  Tago Mago
                  Mod Squad
                  Joined:

                  These ungrateful halfwits should thank the lucky stars that they are led by the Englanders...

                  last edited by EdHE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • GilesG
                    Giles
                    IHUK Crew
                    Joined:

                    Absofuckiglutely....

                    "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

                    last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • gazza61G
                      gazza61
                      Raw and Unwashed
                      Joined:

                      and also when scotland had there vote on independence they were persuaded to stay in the uk or they would be left out of the eu which they very much wanted to remain in.

                      last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • popvultureP
                        popvulture
                        見習いボス
                        Joined:

                        WTB
                        IHSH-IHG-BLK XXL
                        Sugar Cane Coke Stripe SS L charcoal

                        last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                        • Tago MagoT
                          Tago Mago
                          Mod Squad
                          Joined:

                          last edited by gazza61G 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                          • gazza61G
                            gazza61
                            Raw and Unwashed
                            @Tago Mago
                            Joined:

                            @Tago-Mago love the video

                            last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • EdHE
                              EdH
                              Iron Heart Deity
                              @Tago Mago
                              Joined:

                              @Tago-Mago From memory, Wales also was overall Leave (52.5%) and in line with the national vote. NI was marginally in favour of Remain (55.8%). Scotland was the outlier recording something like 62% in favour of Remain.

                              @gazza61 Well, 62% of them wanted to stay in. 38% wanted to leave. That's more "very much wanted" than the rest of the UK, I suppose, but not by 'very much'. 😉

                              I've never understood the SNP's position on this... they want to leave the UK, in favour of a super-national organisation where the Scots would be even smaller fish in a much larger school (comparatively). Polling I've seen of SNP voters suggests that, in 2016, they were more inclined to vote Leave than non-SNP voters (funny that nationalists wouldn't be in favour of globalisation/super-national bodies...).

                              My, admittedly cynical, read on it is that Sturgeon and her Party jumped on the fact that, as a country, Scotland had the largest Remain majority (if you ignore Gibraltar) to bolster their argument for leaving the UK purely to attract Remain voters, while those that would want a fully independent Scotland realised that leaving the UK and joining the EU would be separate votes and arguments.

                              Ultimately I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't say that this is something the Scots should have the right to decide for themselves, but I don't think you can just re-run referenda ad-infinitem until you get the result you want. For one thing you'd have no comeback to the person who comes along afterwards and says "best of three"?

                              (Also, as an aside and at the risk of going off topic, the SNP's rhetoric doesn't play well South of the wall either. Multiple of my English family members have asked "when do we get a vote on whether we want to kick out Scotland?" around the dinner table whenever Scottish Independence has been in the news cycle again. But I suppose that that suits the SNP's purposes just as well.)

                              Edit: realised I could just go and look up the actual voting proportions on Wikipedia, so I've put accurate voting data in the above.

                              Take the dive...

                              last edited by EdH Tago MagoT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • Tago MagoT
                                Tago Mago
                                Mod Squad
                                @EdH
                                Joined:

                                @EdH I'm aware that Brexit wasn't a case of "the English" dragging the rest of the UK out of the EU kicking and screaming against their will. I was merely pointing out, maybe not as articulately as is required for such a complicated and multi-faceted topic, that coverage of Brexit from my perspective focused heavily on England and failed to adequately address a number of issues that affected all other parts of the UK as well, or in some cases exclusively affected them, e.g. Northern Ireland as mentioned above. But that might be an indictment of the quality of reporting or my selective perception in the lead-up to the referendum

                                last edited by Tago Mago EdHE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • EdHE
                                  EdH
                                  Iron Heart Deity
                                  @Tago Mago
                                  Joined:

                                  @Tago-Mago Point taken. I do recall NI coming up at the margins ahead of the vote, but I think the argument went along the lines of Remain campaign saying "the Troubles could re-start" and the Leave campaign saying "don't be ridiculous". I don't recall any sort of in-depth analysis of the Good Friday Agreement or how that would interact with the EU treaties.

                                  Take the dive...

                                  last edited by Tago MagoT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                  • Tago MagoT
                                    Tago Mago
                                    Mod Squad
                                    @EdH
                                    Joined:

                                    @EdH Ultimately, the result of the referendum speaks for itself. In my opinion there's no point in repeating the referendum until there's a result that I like. That's democracy, like it or not.

                                    The biggest issue in my opinion is the cavalier attitude with which Brexit was approached. As mentioned before, I don't think that the "Brexiteers" actually thought they were going to win, which is reflected in how things have gone since.

                                    I also think that a more conciliatory tone on both sides would have helped. But the EU is the jilted lover in this scenario and the UK's players are blinded by their unexpected victory

                                    last edited by EdHE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • GilesG
                                      Giles
                                      IHUK Crew
                                      Joined:

                                      AND, the result of the vote was advisory not mandatory. 51:49 or whatever it was, Dave should have said that it was too close to be overwhelming. And quite frankly, we have an elected government to make decisions on our behalf, decisions that are too complex for mortals like me to understand properly....

                                      "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

                                      last edited by EdHE louisboscoL 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • EdHE
                                        EdH
                                        Iron Heart Deity
                                        @Tago Mago
                                        Joined:

                                        @Tago-Mago said in Brexshit:

                                        the cavalier attitude with which Brexit was approached

                                        In fairness, I don't think it could have been approached in any other way, for both political and legal reasons. The Leave campaign was not the Government of the day, so if they'd drawn up official plans then the Remain campaign would have been able to say "you're not in Government, none of that can be said to be a policy".

                                        I think the problem here was that the Government had been foolish enough to take a position on the referendum. Once they did that, they couldn't allow the civil service to prepare contingency plans for a Leave result, as that would allow the Leave campaign to say "see, the Government has a plan, it'll look like this" when, for political reasons, the Government wanted to be able to present a vote to Leave as a jump into the unknown. In fact, the Government forbade the civil service from drawing up any plans for this very reason, as they would more-likely-than-not end up leaking to the press.

                                        There is also the wrinkle that EU law as drafted actively forbids pre-Article 50 notice discussions with a Member State that is contemplating activating Article 50. (I can't recall if there was an ECJ decision on this point, I think there was, but it was certainly the Commission's position.) So any Government plans would have to be caveated with "we'd like to try and do [x], but the EU's position is unknown and they won't talk to us unless we actually do this".

                                        If we could go back in time, and with the benefit of hindsight, I think the Government should have stayed above the vote, saying "this is a choice you've got to make". This would allow the Gov to draw up plans - as far as they could given the EU's position and with the necessary caveats - which could have been published in advance. Meanwhile individual politicians would have been free to campaign for their preferred side.

                                        Take the dive...

                                        last edited by EdH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • EdHE
                                          EdH
                                          Iron Heart Deity
                                          @Giles
                                          Joined:

                                          @Giles said in Brexshit:

                                          advisory not mandatory. 51:49 or whatever it was, Dave should have said that it was too close to be overwhelming

                                          Technically true, the referendum was only advisory, but that's for arcane legal reasons to do with the UK's constitutional framework.

                                          You'd have to weigh the political risks of invoking Article 50 and leaving the EU with the risks of going against the result of a referendum which, on a political level at least, you've promised people would be binding.

                                          I'm not sure whether I'd like to see what would happen if Dave had decided to go back on that promise and refuse to Brexit after making such a promise.

                                          *Edit: you've reminded me of fascinating legal-political arguments which were going on over at the UK Constitutional Law Association's blogs back in 2016-2019. The nerd in me now wants to go back and re-read them. 😅 *

                                          Take the dive...

                                          last edited by EdH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • GilesG
                                            Giles
                                            IHUK Crew
                                            Joined:

                                            Never take anything that I say as something I wholeheartedly believe in. I like taking a position and pushing it a little bit...It's like my recollections of events are always more humorous and interesting than actuality. Real life can always be improved upon 🙂

                                            "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

                                            last edited by goosehdG EdHE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 3
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