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    • Tago MagoT
      Tago Mago
      Mod Squad
      @EdH
      Joined:

      @EdH Ultimately, the result of the referendum speaks for itself. In my opinion there's no point in repeating the referendum until there's a result that I like. That's democracy, like it or not.

      The biggest issue in my opinion is the cavalier attitude with which Brexit was approached. As mentioned before, I don't think that the "Brexiteers" actually thought they were going to win, which is reflected in how things have gone since.

      I also think that a more conciliatory tone on both sides would have helped. But the EU is the jilted lover in this scenario and the UK's players are blinded by their unexpected victory

      last edited by EdHE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • GilesG
        Giles
        IHUK Crew
        Joined:

        AND, the result of the vote was advisory not mandatory. 51:49 or whatever it was, Dave should have said that it was too close to be overwhelming. And quite frankly, we have an elected government to make decisions on our behalf, decisions that are too complex for mortals like me to understand properly....

        "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

        last edited by EdHE louisboscoL 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
        • EdHE
          EdH
          Iron Heart Deity
          @Tago Mago
          Joined:

          @Tago-Mago said in Brexshit:

          the cavalier attitude with which Brexit was approached

          In fairness, I don't think it could have been approached in any other way, for both political and legal reasons. The Leave campaign was not the Government of the day, so if they'd drawn up official plans then the Remain campaign would have been able to say "you're not in Government, none of that can be said to be a policy".

          I think the problem here was that the Government had been foolish enough to take a position on the referendum. Once they did that, they couldn't allow the civil service to prepare contingency plans for a Leave result, as that would allow the Leave campaign to say "see, the Government has a plan, it'll look like this" when, for political reasons, the Government wanted to be able to present a vote to Leave as a jump into the unknown. In fact, the Government forbade the civil service from drawing up any plans for this very reason, as they would more-likely-than-not end up leaking to the press.

          There is also the wrinkle that EU law as drafted actively forbids pre-Article 50 notice discussions with a Member State that is contemplating activating Article 50. (I can't recall if there was an ECJ decision on this point, I think there was, but it was certainly the Commission's position.) So any Government plans would have to be caveated with "we'd like to try and do [x], but the EU's position is unknown and they won't talk to us unless we actually do this".

          If we could go back in time, and with the benefit of hindsight, I think the Government should have stayed above the vote, saying "this is a choice you've got to make". This would allow the Gov to draw up plans - as far as they could given the EU's position and with the necessary caveats - which could have been published in advance. Meanwhile individual politicians would have been free to campaign for their preferred side.

          Take the dive...

          last edited by EdH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • EdHE
            EdH
            Iron Heart Deity
            @Giles
            Joined:

            @Giles said in Brexshit:

            advisory not mandatory. 51:49 or whatever it was, Dave should have said that it was too close to be overwhelming

            Technically true, the referendum was only advisory, but that's for arcane legal reasons to do with the UK's constitutional framework.

            You'd have to weigh the political risks of invoking Article 50 and leaving the EU with the risks of going against the result of a referendum which, on a political level at least, you've promised people would be binding.

            I'm not sure whether I'd like to see what would happen if Dave had decided to go back on that promise and refuse to Brexit after making such a promise.

            *Edit: you've reminded me of fascinating legal-political arguments which were going on over at the UK Constitutional Law Association's blogs back in 2016-2019. The nerd in me now wants to go back and re-read them. 😅 *

            Take the dive...

            last edited by EdH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • GilesG
              Giles
              IHUK Crew
              Joined:

              Never take anything that I say as something I wholeheartedly believe in. I like taking a position and pushing it a little bit...It's like my recollections of events are always more humorous and interesting than actuality. Real life can always be improved upon 🙂

              "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

              last edited by goosehdG EdHE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 3
              • goosehdG
                goosehd
                Mod Squad
                @Giles
                Joined:

                @Giles …and that makes you a good host!

                "I don't give a shit what anyone else is doing, we will do what is best for us and our customers" - Giles P. :)

                last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • EdHE
                  EdH
                  Iron Heart Deity
                  @Giles
                  Joined:

                  @Giles said in Brexshit:

                  Never take anything that I say as something I wholeheartedly believe in. I like taking a position and pushing it a little bit...

                  Don't worry. One side-effect of my first degree being PPE (with most of it being philosophy options) and being surrounded by much smarter people than me is that I have a tendency to think that way myself and assume that everyone is testing their points by making them publicly.

                  I have consequently developed a bad habit of prefacing most of my statements with "I think" when I talk. (My boss thinks I'm trying to be some combination of too-lawyerly, non-committal, and/or evasive all the time. I have to keep explaining that I'm always half-expecting a counter argument to every utterance I make, even if it's as obvious as "water is wet".)

                  Take the dive...

                  last edited by Tago MagoT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • Tago MagoT
                    Tago Mago
                    Mod Squad
                    @EdH
                    Joined:

                    @EdH said in Brexshit:

                    "water is wet"

                    that's what they want you to believe, you fool!

                    last edited by EdHE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                    • EdHE
                      EdH
                      Iron Heart Deity
                      @Tago Mago
                      Joined:

                      @Tago-Mago

                      To immediately counter myself... a single molecule of H2O is still water, but wetness is an emergent property of there being a sufficient number of H2O molecules in one place to reduce friction between two other objects.

                      See what I mean! I can't help thinking this way, it's awful. 🤣

                      Take the dive...

                      last edited by Tago MagoT mclaincauseyM 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                      • Tago MagoT
                        Tago Mago
                        Mod Squad
                        @EdH
                        Joined:

                        @EdH you forgot to take pressure and temperature into consideration. Depending on these, a substance could thermodynamically exist as solid, liquid or gas, or even all at once in equilibrium

                        last edited by Tago Mago 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                        • goosehdG
                          goosehd
                          Mod Squad
                          Joined:

                          drinking with you guys should be fun 🙂

                          "I don't give a shit what anyone else is doing, we will do what is best for us and our customers" - Giles P. :)

                          last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                          • mclaincauseyM
                            mclaincausey
                            見習いボス
                            @EdH
                            Joined:

                            @EdH said in Brexshit:

                            @Tago-Mago

                            To immediately counter myself... a single molecule of H2O is still water,

                            Is it though? In my mind “water” refers to the liquid state of H2O. You can’t have a liquid with a single molecule.

                            Think it, be it.

                            last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • Tago MagoT
                              Tago Mago
                              Mod Squad
                              Joined:

                              I just wanted to thank everyone for this discussion, @EdH in particular for adding a totally different perspective and introducing a number of aspects, that I either wasn’t aware of or hadn’t considered. I still think Brexit was a bad idea 😉

                              last edited by I 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • I
                                IrishHeart
                                Haraki san Expert
                                @Tago Mago
                                Joined:

                                @Tago-Mago agreed, except for the bit about water which has gone right over my head 🙂

                                last edited by ARNCA 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                • ARNCA
                                  ARNC
                                  啓蒙家
                                  @IrishHeart
                                  Joined:

                                  @IrishHeart it’s not good for water to go right over your head, at least not for a prolonged period 😃

                                  “Every day that you survive you get a free sunset“

                                  last edited by I 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                                  • I
                                    IrishHeart
                                    Haraki san Expert
                                    @ARNC
                                    Joined:

                                    @ARNC haha! Good observation, although at 6’4 it has to be pretty deep!

                                    last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                    • louisboscoL
                                      louisbosco
                                      啓蒙家
                                      @Giles
                                      Joined:

                                      @Giles said in Brexshit:

                                      AND, the result of the vote was advisory not mandatory.

                                      this very point. it also would've career suicide for anyone to go "nah, we're not going to follow the referendum" and DC didn't want to be the person to invoke article 50 so he resigned and said some one else can deal with this..

                                      "Loyalty is a two way street. If i'm asking for it from you, then you're getting it from me."

                                      • Harvey Specter
                                      last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • T4920T
                                        T4920
                                        見習いボス
                                        Joined:

                                        On the subject of Brexit, from an IH business point of view, what was the biggest ramification that came about as a result of it?
                                        And if any, what were the positives?

                                        @Giles @Alex

                                        “𝑁𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑙𝑒𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑢𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑒 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑏 𝑦𝑜𝑢. 𝑌𝑜𝑢 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑚𝑒𝑒𝑡 𝑖𝑡, 𝑖𝑓 𝑦𝑜𝑢 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑡𝑜, 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑤𝑒𝑎𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑠𝑜𝑛 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑡𝑜𝑑𝑎𝑦 𝑎𝑟𝑚 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑎𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑠𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑒𝑛𝑡.”

                                        last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • GilesG
                                          Giles
                                          IHUK Crew
                                          Joined:

                                          Overnight, we did not just ship a package to The EU, we had to export it. So although there is a free trade agreement between The EU and Japan and a similar one between The UK and Japan, all non-UK-produced goods attract 12% duty, so upon entry into The EU, our shipments were subject to duty and also VAT on the sum of the declared price plus the duty. So we either shipped to EU and let the customer deal with that shit (something they had not had to do before) or ship and pay the duty and the tax ourselves, in both cases with the high probability that the shipping company would also charge us, or the customer additional "handling" fees. We elected to do the latter and shield the customer from the grief. Then if a customer needs to return the goods, there is no sensible way that we can claim a refund for the tax, the duty or additional fees. The single worst example being a customer who ordered 2 pairs of Wesco boots and returned both pairs - revenue zero, cost of sale €500.

                                          No positives at all.

                                          "OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011

                                          last edited by T4920T 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                          • T4920T
                                            T4920
                                            見習いボス
                                            @Giles
                                            Joined:

                                            @Giles that sounds awful!
                                            I assume that's how/why IH Germany came about, to serve the EU market whilst circumnavigating these export fees?

                                            “𝑁𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑙𝑒𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑢𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑒 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑏 𝑦𝑜𝑢. 𝑌𝑜𝑢 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑚𝑒𝑒𝑡 𝑖𝑡, 𝑖𝑓 𝑦𝑜𝑢 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑡𝑜, 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑤𝑒𝑎𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑠𝑜𝑛 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑡𝑜𝑑𝑎𝑦 𝑎𝑟𝑚 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑎𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑠𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑒𝑛𝑡.”

                                            last edited by 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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