Brexshit
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I loved being part of the eu all that free movement ,buying all there lovely products meeting all my friends in france,you never solve a problem by running away.
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@gazza61 And then brought them back again 2 years ago...
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Wow, ok, this thread feels like it needs (more than) a little balance, and as someone who voted for Brexit, I'm happy to put my head above the parapet and possibly take some flack in the interests of giving people a little perspective. Having skim read the above comments, it doesn't look like anyone has owned up to having voted for Brexit yet, and it looks like there are some assumptions being made about those who voted to leave that I might be able to assuage.
So let's start with the important point: Why'd I vote to Leave the EU?
Essentially, I voted for broader political/philosophical reasons, rather than economic or "issue-political" ones. I generally prefer a democratic political systems to un-democratic ones, and believe that those expected to live by a set of laws or policies should be able to vote to change those laws or policies (or vote for the people who will change them).
While a student I had studied the EU Treaties and understood how little power the citizen has in the EU system, despite it being notionally 'democratic'. Most people don't realise that the EU Commission cannot be voted in or out of power by the people, yet that is the institution of the EU that has legislative initiative. The people get to vote for their member of the EU Parliament, but that is just a second chamber, and it cannot propose laws. I believed that that is too much power to give to people who are not elected.
So I felt that the EU was an undemocratic (or, if you prefer, 'not-democratic-enough-for-me'). And when the opportunity came up to change that for the UK, I took it - who could say when or if the UK would get another chance to do so? It wasn't about immigration, the price of anything in particular, or economics, for me. I accepted at the time that the UK's economic prospects may be damaged by leaving the EU, especially in the short-medium term, but thought that a price worth paying.
Am I happy with the way Brexit is going at the moment? I think it's probably too early to say; we only properly left 3 years ago (the Transition Period ended on 31 Dec 2020) and Covid came along and messed up all Europe's economies, and then Russia invaded Ukraine and put pressure on all our energy supplies, etc, etc, so it's hard to distinguish the impacts of Brexit (if any, the UK Government seems remarkably cautious to make any changes to the way the UK does things) from the rest of the global events that have come along in the same time frame. From what I read, most countries in Europe seem to be having economic and political problems which appear, to me at least, to be based on much broader geopolitical and demographic issues - where are we getting our energy and food from? who will maintain our comparatively generous pension and social support systems in an era of declining birth rates? - than whether or not the UK was or would continue to be part of a trading and political bloc.
Would I vote for Brexit in 2016 again if I could go back and tell my 8-year-younger self what I know now? Probably, because the principle still holds for me. Would I vote for it again today? Yeah, probably guilty there too, I think that principle is pretty important, as it happens.
I do lament the societal fallout from the 2016 vote quite a lot. All we were asked was to put a cross in a box on a piece of paper, but some of the vitriol and invective I've read in the media (going both ways) seems totally out of proportion to all that, and appears to be based on caricatures about what picking one box over the other says about the individual voter as a person.
Anyway, there's my piece. Happy to answer anyone's Qs to the best of my ability and knowledge - I studied the circumstances around the 2016 vote in some detail a few years back for reasons I can't get into, so I might know a thing or two? - in the hope that, maybe(?), we can start to get over some of the assumptions that underlie the stereotype of what a 'Brexiteer' looks like, thinks, believes, etc.
Take the dive...
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And strange enough, some of these people managed to persuade others to follow their political ideas despite the obvious fact it wasn't in their own benefit.
This sentence jumped out at me. I get the impression that you are using "benefit" in a narrow, economic sense. I had the feeling in 2016 from those that I spoke to about it that people were generally well informed about the upcoming vote, and were carefully - as carefully as anyone considers any particular voting decision, anyway - weighing up their choice. The economic costs/benefit discussions were going on over drinks, around dinner tables, etc, and were just one aspect of a debate we were having.
As for your comments about 'class', well while I wouldn't call myself working class today, I'm definitely from that background, being the first person from my UK-side of the family to attend university. My recollection from discussions with my 'working class' cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents, was that they were critically assessing both sides of the arguments that were being had in the media between the two campaigns. (One thing going for the UK working class, in my experience at least, is that they have an excellent nose for bullshit.)
Take the dive...
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@EdH Well written and I appreciate it. It’s an Interesting take that I have not explored and will take the time to do so. Thank you!
We all have to remember that this forum is an open community where everyone can contribute their thoughts and ideas be it like minded or opposing in nature.
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I have no preconceptions/views about what a Brexiteer looks like, and I have many friends who voted to leave.
But, I have yet to see anything good come out of it for the UK or the EU (I am happy to be told what they are to give me some balance). And selfishly it has fucked our European business up so badly, that we seriously thought long and hard about whether we could continue doing business in the EEC (and in fact, many small companies on both sides of the channel have stopped shipping across the channel). As it is, we did eventually decide to weather the storm, but our profitability on European sales has plummeted, and our customers in Europe have a significantly worse user experience than prior to Brexit.
It now takes longer and costs more for us to ship something to Calais than it does to New York.
And on another selfish point, I am really pissed off that I can no longer spend more than 90 days out of 180 days in the EEC.
"OK face up to it - you're useless but generally pretty honest and straightforward . . . it's a rare combination of qualities that I have come to admire in you" - Geo 2011
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I get the impression that you are using "benefit" in a narrow, economic sense.
Not really, it was quite openly said, but what I mean is more a benefit not only on economic issues, but also social and cultural. The growing-closer of the different nations on the continent during my lifespan has given us not only a better economic situation, but also social and cultural improvements that were to the benefit of the most. Somebody from the AfD would certainly talk different, and I know it's still quite vague what I'm saying here. But with all respect and love I have for the UK and it's people, I think it would benefit from more mingling, get rid of the class system that is (sorry IMO) outdated and detrimental. Only also my impression from (certainly much less talking to Brits before the Leave than you must have had) was not (again sorry) that 'people were generally well informed about the upcoming vote, and weighing up their choice'. IMO there was also a lot of nationalism going on.
@EdH after all please remember this is a foreign language to me, not always easy to find appropriate words. Perhaps we can discuss this on our next meeting in more detail.
si tacuisses
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@EdH Thanks for your comprehensive write-up and the detailed explanation of you reasons for voting to leave.
I'd disagree with you in that I think the discussion around Brexit was never that nuanced to begin with. Over time, the little nuance that was there initially was replaced by emotions and opinions with little to no basis in facts. From talking to friends and relatives I also didn't get the impression that they had given as much attention to the pros and cons of being a part of the EU. (On a sidenote - this whole idea of "taking back control" or giving power to the people again seems to have conveniently gone out of the window, as neither Liz Truss nor Rishi Sunak were actually elected to be PM. But that's a separate discussion).
Regardless of one's opinion on the matter, it's done now and everyone has to deal with it. The thing that pisses me off the most is that all those muppets who campaigned for leave apparently never believed that they were going to win because there was no plan in place and they just fucked off after the fact.
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I have yet to see anything good come out of it for the UK or the EU
Yeah, fair cop. I'd count the fact that our (useless) politicians are at least answerable to us for the laws/policies they make to be a benefit in an of itself - at least, they no longer have the excuse of saying "that's an EU thing we can't change" - but appreciate that that's intangible. It puts the onus back on us to vote in the next lot.
The only other thing that springs immediately to mind is that the UK had a better Covid-vaccine procurement programme that the EU's, which did things collectively on behalf of its Member States (if I recall correctly we were offered to join it as we were still in the Transition Period). But in fairness examining that whole mess is probably a question for a PhD thesis, as so many countries took different approaches to lockdowns and have different healthcare systems it's probably quite hard to unpick whether the UK got any benefits from the fact that it got started on vaccinations a couple of months ahead of the EU.
The fact it's harder to ship to Calais that NYC is absurd. Is that down to the UK's decisions/position post-Brexit, or the EU's? (I honestly don't know; it's not a rhetorical question.)
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Is that down to the UK's decisions/position post-Brexit, or the EU's? (I honestly don't know; it's not a rhetorical question.)
I'd say it's a combination of a hard negotiating stance by the EU as deterrent against possible future leavers as well as hubris and ineptitude on the UK's side:
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@EdH thanks for this contribution. I (still) have friends and colleagues from both sides and most (although not all) thought deeply before voting. I think with hindsight that the biggest problem was that “all we were asked was to put a cross in a box on a piece of paper”, with insufficient consideration of what might come next. Where we ended up is perhaps somewhat different to what seemed to be on offer in 2016.
For me perhaps the biggest lost opportunity is the chance to be part of and influence the development of the new Unified Patent Court system. Admittedly a slightly niche interest which will hit my younger colleagues harder (I was “grandfathered in” as a UPC representative but they will need additional qualifications obtained outside the UK).
[Note: Some additional posts came in as I was writing this, so some of my thoughts may have already been covered.]
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I agree that our approach to Covid vaccination procurement was brilliant compared to others, and had we been part of The EEC our ability to wing it and go our own way would have been severely compromised.
Much of the increase in difficulty in shipping to The EU is because frankly most of the EU is butt hurt that we left ,and many member countries are "making us pay" for that. But also the massive increase in paperwork and effort that the shipping companies have to spend as a result of Brexit, comes at a cost - a cost that is passed down to us.
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