Iron Heart Products - What do you think we should make?
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I can’t wear anything under 14oz. My experience with lightweight denim is that the fabric wears out faster in the stress points. I’m not saying lightweight IH denim is a bad idea I just know I wouldn’t wear them. Besides, when it’s hotter than sh*t outside I’m wearing shorts damnit [emoji1]
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My experience has actually been the opposite. My heaviest denims have actually gotten holes in them quicker than any other denims and I'm sure it's because of the amount of friction created with the heavier fabrics rubbing together is greater than it would be with a lightweight fabric. That's my thinking anyways.
I don't wear shorts hardly at all anymore… which is just as good for everyone else's sake cause nobody want's to see my white ass legs in public.
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I'm not disagreeing that the international market is buying the heavy biker gear, those in hotter climates included. I was just addressing the statement you made previously that the Japanese market is the target market and his focus needs to be there by pointing out that the target market doesn't appear to be buying nearly as much as they once were so putting the focus there seems less relevant today than it once was.
I don't feel in any way that making a lightweight denim would be diluting his vision to chase sales. I would never suggest he do that as I previously stated. Again, they might actually sell like shit so that would be quite the opposite of me suggesting he should chase sales.
IH making 10oz denim jeans doesn’t make any sense for the brand. It just doesn’t rhyme with the philosophy. The locus of the brand has always been heavyweight jeans, specifically the 21oz denim. Everything else circles that.
I’m afraid I wasn’t clear enough in my earlier post. I didn’t mean to imply that H targets the Japanese market. The point was that he makes clothes for Japanese bikers. They are the users he envisions when designing. He does that because he is one. His clothes are a product of his interests and his environment. If you watch Weaving Shibusa he talks about only making gear he would want to wear. Why would he design and make clothes he doesn’t want to, when people all over the world are already buying what he wants to make?
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And within reason, and to the extent that Alex and I can persuade H, we do make specific garments, fits and sizes for the western market. Often, after a year or two Haraki will ask us if we mind if he adopts an idea we have come up with, for the Japanese market, witness the indigo/indigo duck and denim, the 14, 18 and 25oz denims, the 555 and the 666 cut. But, I 100% promise you, I will not be asking him to do a denim lighter than 14oz, I'm still amazed I got away with the 14oz….
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For me personally Iron Heart is all about heavy denim, the heavier the better. And yes, I do wear XHS and UHR during summer (something I couldn't even imagine before discovering the brand). Although experiencing the first iteration of the 14 oz and thinking it's quite nice I am still unsure about IH going below 18 oz denim. I would rather see a new 20, 22, 23 or even 24 oz / loomstate denim as the heavy range represents the spirit of the brand IMHO.
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I am curious to try the 14oz but for me IH is all about the heavy stuff. They do it better than anyone else.
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Often, after a year or two Haraki will ask us if we mind if he adopts an idea we have come up with, for the Japanese market, witness the indigo/indigo duck and denim, the 14, 18 and 25oz denims, the 555 and the 666 cut.
This symbiotic relationship is pretty special and is vital for the global appeal of the brand…
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I am curious to try the 14oz but for me IH is all about the heavy stuff.
I’d like to give it a try someday but I just can’t see myself prioritising it over the other heavier offerings.
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As long as I'm still on the east coast with our stupid humid summers, I'll always keep a 14oz in the rotation. I don't see myself wanting anything lighter than that, though.
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I am curious to try the 14oz but for me IH is all about the heavy stuff.
I’d like to give it a try someday but I just can’t see myself prioritising it over the other heavier offerings.
My next pair of IH jeans will prolly be the 14oz denim, either 888 or 633, just not sure when. I've always been into heavy duty rugged clothing, long before I discovered IH, and when I did I was overjoyed. I haven't lost any desire for heavy denim, but I'm beginning to appreciate lighter denims more. Really looking forward to the 14oz B/B and I/B and may hold out for one of these; but I still really love good ol' I/W.
I don't think the weight of denim is the ultimate factor in durability, wind resistance, or ruggedness. I think the most important factors are (when talking cotton only) how tightly and consistently the yarns are spun and the fabric is woven. Tighter, denser, consistent fabric will be more durable than looser, inconsistent fabric.
If we consider old-timey western and work wear that much of the JP denim world used as original inspiration, it was lighter weight fabrics in the 10-12 oz range. Denim was developed as a durable fabric, and inconsistencies came about due to subtle manufacturing variations, not intentional. My point being I can see a 10-12 oz denim being designed that would fit the IH aesthetic and intention. I'm not necessarily advocating/pushing/requesting it, just saying I think it's possible.
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I'm not disagreeing that the international market is buying the heavy biker gear, those in hotter climates included. I was just addressing the statement you made previously that the Japanese market is the target market and his focus needs to be there by pointing out that the target market doesn't appear to be buying nearly as much as they once were so putting the focus there seems less relevant today than it once was.
I don't feel in any way that making a lightweight denim would be diluting his vision to chase sales. I would never suggest he do that as I previously stated. Again, they might actually sell like shit so that would be quite the opposite of me suggesting he should chase sales.
IH making 10oz denim jeans doesn’t make any sense for the brand. It just doesn’t rhyme with the philosophy. The locus of the brand has always been heavyweight jeans, specifically the 21oz denim. Everything else circles that.
I’m afraid I wasn’t clear enough in my earlier post. I didn’t mean to imply that H targets the Japanese market. The point was that he makes clothes for Japanese bikers. They are the users he envisions when designing. He does that because he is one. His clothes are a product of his interests and his environment. If you watch Weaving Shibusa he talks about only making gear he would want to wear. Why would he design and make clothes he doesn’t want to, when people all over the world are already buying what he wants to make?
Again, I don't think I'm necessarily disagreeing with you on most points here and maybe I'm mistakingly assuming that it doesn't need to be said that I love the heavy stuff and fully support his ideas and vision. I mean after all that's pretty much why everyone of us is here in the first place. If I'm coming across as suggesting he needs to change his vision and start making clothes that aren't what he would wear and don't fit the Japanese biker aesthetic just to try and appeal to the masses more and chase sales then I'm definitely not being clear enough either because that's the last thing I'm suggesting. It actually kind of bothers me if I'm coming across that way because anyone who knows me in person knows that I'm all about going against the grain and sticking to your ideals as a person or a business and not giving a fuck about what others are doing….being true...which again is what drew me to IH in the first place.
Forget I suggested 10oz and lets just stick with 12oz for the purpose of this convo. I could be mistaken but I believe that 12oz is still heavier than the vast majority of mass produced denim out there and would still be considered "heavy" to most consumers. I'm not suggesting we need to worry about the masses or most consumers so don't mitsake me on that, I'm just putting it in perspective because I think as denimheads we are a different breed and maybe lose perspective sometimes getting caught up in the heavyweight fabrics, which again I'm a huge fan of. So as mpukas said I think a 12oz denim could fit the IH aesthetic and still easily be considered biker wear, especially considering how H does the fabrics. I don't know what it is about v2 of the 14oz denim but it feels much more rugged and heavier than a 14oz denim but still has the comfort of a 14oz denim.....so I'm just coming at it from that angle, envisioning what H did with a 14oz denim and thinking man...I bet H could make a killer 12oz denim that's like no other 12oz denim considering how great the 14oz denim came out.
I think the only thing we are disagreeing on is you think a 12oz doesn't make sense within the IH brand and wouldn't fit the Japanese biker vision while I think that a 12oz denim done with H's touch easily could. Maybe you're right...maybe I'm wrong...but it's just my opinion.
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@manufc10 if I was into lightweight denim I would totally get a pair of jeans from this Viapiana. These are sublimely awesome http://www.viapiana.ca/workwear/
Tons of lighter weight denim to pick from.
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If we consider old-timey western and work wear that much of the JP denim world used as original inspiration, it was lighter weight fabrics in the 10-12 oz range.
I feel that if IH were a repro/vintage brand this would be fine. But they aren’t. Sure the designs are inspired by blueprints from the past but Haraki-san mostly used post war templates for his clothes. Even the 634 is based on post war Levi’s. And H isn’t concerned with accuracy either in the way RMC are, for example.
I agree with regards to density of weave, thickness, heaviness all being variable factors. If you look at the retired 18oz denim it is far, far tighter in its weave than the 21oz. I’m speculating but I would imagine H saw the two as different approaches to diffeeent riding situations. I have a feeling that the heaviness of the denim is often about aesthetic as much as practical advantage. This may be one reason why 10oz IH denim never gets made.
All the Japanese brands (and Mr. Freedom) have their own concepts and approaches. IH have the heaviness, the over engineering and biker aesthetic. Samurai have the vintage fade and construction. RMc have the repro thing and TFH have the post modern Americana/pop culture thing. These are concepts that give each brand creative inspiration and also identify. But if these brands stray too far from the DNA of what they do and started making everything and anything, then that identity becomes diluted.
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@Filthy:
@manufc10 if I was into lightweight denim I would totally get a pair of jeans from this Viapiana. These are sublimely awesome http://www.viapiana.ca/workwear/
Tons of lighter weight denim to pick from.
Wow…all custom?
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All custom, I have so many jeans but I want him to make me a flannel lined pair of those in a 15 oz denim or indigo duck. I have been meaning to write to him but never got around to it.
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If we consider old-timey western and work wear that much of the JP denim world used as original inspiration, it was lighter weight fabrics in the 10-12 oz range.
…...But if these brands stray too far from the DNA of what they do and started making everything and anything, then that identity becomes diluted.
IH has made polo shirts, sweatpants, and coffee cups…..I'm failing to see how a 12oz denim strays farther away from the brand's DNA and identity than those items.
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@Filthy:
All custom, I have so many jeans but I want him to make me a flannel lined pair of those in a 15 oz denim or indigo duck. I have been meaning to write to him but never got around to it.
Thanks @Filthy, I'll check them out.
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i’m enjoy this conversation
i been here a little while and have seen some hits and misses from Iron Heart
as long as the same attention 2 detail and thoughtful design goes into it i will continue 2 support wherever it is the team dreams up
we tend 2 put our own identity into things we love and it’s no different with this religion i mean brand
bring on the area rugs, mugs, polo tops and sweatpants imho it doesn’t take away but expands the brand cause it’s not done 4 the sake of doing but because we the customers usually ask 4 it
still waiting on button down collar oxford shirts made out of the fabric used 4 the 13 & 21
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IH has made polo shirts, sweatpants, and coffee cups…..I'm failing to see how a 12oz denim strays farther away from the brand's DNA and identity than those items.
Heavyweight denim is absolutely central to IH, it is the brand’s raison d'être. Polo shirts, coffee cups and sweatpants are not, no?
I can labour the point if you like, but
I’m afraid the brand is never going to produce everything everyone wants. The things it doesn’t make define it as much as the things it does.
