Unpopular opinions
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Just for info and only speaking about the prices in Germany, since they used and still do vary from country to country. I bought my first pair of 875s around 15-16 years ago and they were 479 DM (around 240 Euro), a pair of 875s cost today 279 Euro (official retail). So it really is not that much of a hike at least for Germany.
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^^^ I know what you mean. Still, White's that I can try on in Germany cost me approx. twice as much as RW (500-600€). White's that I have custom made in the US are a good deal, but there's always the risk of taxes and that they don't fit right. Maybe I should just take the plunge and risk it, but the likelihood that I end up with a price like the german retail price is pretty high.
And that makes White's 2x as expensive as RW, while I think they are not 2x as good (lifespan only).
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@Max:
And that makes White's 2x as expensive as RW, while I think they are not 2x as good (lifespan only).
(Lifespan only) buying Levis at thrift stores is many times better than Iron Hearts.. Iron Hearts are still very worth having though. So are really top-end boots like White’s, Wesco, etc.
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Look, we can criticize Red Wing, and there's certainly room to do so, and I'm not a Red Wing fan per se (I do have one pair of true work boots of theirs, and love their socks) but I do have to defend capitalism and running a business… let's keep this conversation honest and realistic: the boot game is in no way rigged, there's no conspiracy or government cronyism giving these guys some kind of unfair competitive advantage. Leveraging success that you've earned isn't "rigged." Their being overpriced is mutually exclusive to their unfairly extinguishing competition. If they were leveraging their assets to have artificially low pricing in order to destroy smaller rivals, I would concede that they were engaging in anticompetitive and possibly unfair business tactics. They're doing the opposite. They are charging a premium, because they can command it, and driving some enthusiasts TO these smaller brands. RW is going to be a gateway boot for a lot of White's, Wesco, Nick's, OSB, and Viberg owners, I am sure.
You'd better believe Iron Heart controls their product from top to bottom too, moreso than RW, and are trying to control ever more of their value chain (Giles has talked about in-housing more manufacturing operations here before), and they'd be fools not to. Same with Red Wing. In fact, they were better when they had MORE control over their product, i.e. when they didn't outsource production. I don't want to buy from people who don't want to control their product top to bottom, because that means something is wrong. They don't care enough. But even RW's own distribution channels heavily rely on franchising, not wholly-owned brick and mortars, and they sell through non-franchised third parties as well, so the "top to bottom" thing doesn't hold water by any definition. And there are tons of bootmakers out there at all conceivable price points, so it's not like they've cornered the market on boots. I'm guessing Timberland outsells them by a hefty margin. Maybe Frye too. They're just popular, like Harley is. And they can leverage the benefits of that popularity, which they earned; their daddy didn't give it to them, this is a business that's been at it for a long time and is now enjoying the benefits. That's capitalism, and I'm happy for their success story. If you're a boot enthusiast who goes for other brands, you should be too, because it keeps people's attentions off them.
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^ You expend far too much time and effort considering the minutiae of everything McL.
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^ You expend far too much time and effort considering the minutiae of everything McL.
Yeah and some of us aren't that big a fans of capitalism… We're €uropeans innit...
waves his red flag and gets out of here
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This would be way too long to properly respond, but I have to disagree with the assertion that IH and Red Wing share any similarities besides a desire to control how their product is distributed. Most markets are rigged, completely and wholly. They are by design meant to ensure perpetual debt and many "products" are little more than monetization or collateral of said debt. RW pricing and their ability to stay competitive directly relates to how much debt as a company they can keep in perpetual motion. While IH may well have it's own debt footprint, limited runs, the manufacturing process, and several examples I've seen here as it relates to their business tell me that continuous debt cycles aren't part of the process.
You may not see things like direct subsidies to companies like RW, but they are a great example of corporate debt and how it relates to fractional reserve banking when it comes to the boot game. Most of the interest from which is funneled to the consumer by both the banks and the companies themselves, often through twisted means. If this isn't bad enough the whole ball of debt wax is loaned back to you by printing money at a negative and endlessly monetizing losses, either by inflation, taxation, or the latest bubble that swallows untold amounts of wealth.
We often agree on a lot, but this is one area where I am going to have to disagree. Make no mistake, I can say clearly it's not always the fault of a business that they get sucked into the cycle. But please, let's stop referring to it as a open or free market, it's a system of debt slavery, turning the populace into little more than labor to constantly feed it.
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Next: whilst traditionally there is a belief that the Germans lack a sense of humour I think we're seeing the US of A make a grab for the crown here
Rafa, as a half kraut, half yank you are officially the worlds most humourless person
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Rafa, as a half kraut, half yank you are officially the worlds most humourless person
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See now thats where I went wrong
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^ You expend far too much time and effort considering the minutiae of everything McL.
Actually, I think I'm the one pushing the simplest theory here: Red Wing is popular because people like them, and because they are popular they can charge what the market will bear for their products. Occam would approve of this versus conspiracy theories about them cornering the market on boots and somehow rigging an entire industry.
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I think I may not have been clear enough, I'm not saying they have the whole boot game rigged, nor did I claim so. They do have everything to do with their product on lock though, as even the franchise's have to adhere to countless ways to "properly sell" RWs product. If you circumvent their method, they won't stand behind their product. Their business model is debt based though, as is the majority of every market. It's here where everything meets that my objections begin. RW is not a healthy functioning business, but most aren't anymore. Prosperity should never be measured by how far one can leverage the future. If my descriptors lacked accuracy, we wouldn't have a global banking system based on these precepts in control of trade and monetary systems. Corporate debt has become the greatest arm of passing this off to the populace, we even have an entire weekend once a year to make sure these debts get squared at our expense. It's not dirty players, it's a dirty game by design.
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Case in point:
Whites Bounty Hunters made with a choice of Chromexcel, dress or oiled leather with a huge variety of sole and hardware configurations - £220 plus £50 shipping.
Red Wing Beckmans - £285
Why?
Is this a european thing? Beckmans are $300 here and widely available. I wouldn't pay more for Beckman's than Whites, but honestly I'd never even heard about Whites until I started on this forum.
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It might even be specifically a UK thing.
Even so $300 for Beckmans or $380 to $400 for SD's ?
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Unpopular opinion: while I may not admire the product, I admire the company:
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Rafa, as a half kraut, half yank you are officially the worlds most humourless person
great one Gav(e)… -
RW is going to be a gateway boot for a lot of White's, Wesco, Nick's, OSB, and Viberg owners, I am sure.
^ Yes
