Brexshit
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I can barely discuss this subject without raging at the self inflicted stupidity of it all. Some of the rationale from people was bewildering.
Some treated it as a protest vote , without giving a second’s thought for the impact that it would have.
Elderly people who had rose tinted memories of a country that no longer exists, and would never live long enough to see their perceived benefits of brexit. Their grandchildren will pay a high price for their shortsightedness.
People who blamed ‘foreigners’ for taking their jobs, even though they don’t want to do the jobs themselves. They have no interest in picking fruit, or working in hospitality, or working in hospitals or in the care system, and are now shocked that pubs are closing, food prices are through the roof and they can’t get a doctor’s or hospital appointment.
And the stupidity of believing in some of the biggest charlatans in UK politics in my lifetime.
I could go on but would be banned from the forum if I said more. -
You’re not alone on this and I bore myself with how often I go in about it, but it makes my blood boil too.
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@IrishHeart Fantastic insights and summation...
I wish all of you the best to those parties affected and I think it is going to be a long, difficult journey to any type of normalcy again.
This has been a fantastic discussion today and I want to thank all of you for participating.
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Overall picture of UK is blood been suck out.
It was worse being in EU and still
worse now.To sort anything out stop spending stupid money, that’s has nothing do with UK
You can’t blame people who want out or in.
Its was government who fuck it all up.
80’s 90’s was best time for Uk
Mids 90’s things starting to wrong -
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I've been visiting the UK (well, England and Scotland, and very little of Wales) regularly since the early 80s. Got good (my eldest) friends over there and we're still meeting (actually they are coming over in May for a weekend). And lived in London for a year (2000-2001). What always intrigued me and what was completely different to my own country (Germany) and to other continental European countries I knew at that time (mainly 'Western' Europe), was the still existing class system. Despite being a democracy for so long, you still had/got people .. and people. Not necessarily united by the nation. And strange enough, some of these people managed to persuade others to follow their political ideas despite the obvious fact it wasn't in their own benefit. You may say this exist everywhere, and yes but maybe not to that extend. Don't know if this makes sense to you, but in a way I see Brexit like that. As far as I understand it was by no means for the benefit of the most people in the UK, but a minority managed to persuade enough people to vote for in brief moment of history. I just hope it's not going to be too devastating. And in a way I don't/can't believe it's forever. It is reversible, but not for the time being.
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And in a way I don't/can't believe it's forever. It is reversible, but not for the time being.
In a way, I feel as if the EU has to hold a line in order to keep the cohesiveness in place for other countries thinking about leaving. There almost has to be a punitive action for countries leaving, finding out it sucks, and then begging to come back in.
Quite honestly, I think that if the UK were contrite and came back to the table wanting to rejoin the EU, there would be opportunities to work things out. The problem is setting precedents that would further erode the EU's cooperative abilities with all member countries leading to overall chaos within the system.
Only time will tell what the time limit is for that punitive action.
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Hugo Young wrote a highly insightful book in 1998 about the complicated relationship between Britain and the EU/Europe/The Continent, This Blessed Plot: Britain and Europe from Churchill to Blair. Obviously, it's missing a chunk of time leading up to Brexit, but it gives you a pretty good idea of the issues and differences that were always there.
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I loved being part of the eu all that free movement ,buying all there lovely products meeting all my friends in france,you never solve a problem by running away.
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@gazza61 And then brought them back again 2 years ago...
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Wow, ok, this thread feels like it needs (more than) a little balance, and as someone who voted for Brexit, I'm happy to put my head above the parapet and possibly take some flack in the interests of giving people a little perspective. Having skim read the above comments, it doesn't look like anyone has owned up to having voted for Brexit yet, and it looks like there are some assumptions being made about those who voted to leave that I might be able to assuage.
So let's start with the important point: Why'd I vote to Leave the EU?
Essentially, I voted for broader political/philosophical reasons, rather than economic or "issue-political" ones. I generally prefer a democratic political systems to un-democratic ones, and believe that those expected to live by a set of laws or policies should be able to vote to change those laws or policies (or vote for the people who will change them).
While a student I had studied the EU Treaties and understood how little power the citizen has in the EU system, despite it being notionally 'democratic'. Most people don't realise that the EU Commission cannot be voted in or out of power by the people, yet that is the institution of the EU that has legislative initiative. The people get to vote for their member of the EU Parliament, but that is just a second chamber, and it cannot propose laws. I believed that that is too much power to give to people who are not elected.
So I felt that the EU was an undemocratic (or, if you prefer, 'not-democratic-enough-for-me'). And when the opportunity came up to change that for the UK, I took it - who could say when or if the UK would get another chance to do so? It wasn't about immigration, the price of anything in particular, or economics, for me. I accepted at the time that the UK's economic prospects may be damaged by leaving the EU, especially in the short-medium term, but thought that a price worth paying.
Am I happy with the way Brexit is going at the moment? I think it's probably too early to say; we only properly left 3 years ago (the Transition Period ended on 31 Dec 2020) and Covid came along and messed up all Europe's economies, and then Russia invaded Ukraine and put pressure on all our energy supplies, etc, etc, so it's hard to distinguish the impacts of Brexit (if any, the UK Government seems remarkably cautious to make any changes to the way the UK does things) from the rest of the global events that have come along in the same time frame. From what I read, most countries in Europe seem to be having economic and political problems which appear, to me at least, to be based on much broader geopolitical and demographic issues - where are we getting our energy and food from? who will maintain our comparatively generous pension and social support systems in an era of declining birth rates? - than whether or not the UK was or would continue to be part of a trading and political bloc.
Would I vote for Brexit in 2016 again if I could go back and tell my 8-year-younger self what I know now? Probably, because the principle still holds for me. Would I vote for it again today? Yeah, probably guilty there too, I think that principle is pretty important, as it happens.
I do lament the societal fallout from the 2016 vote quite a lot. All we were asked was to put a cross in a box on a piece of paper, but some of the vitriol and invective I've read in the media (going both ways) seems totally out of proportion to all that, and appears to be based on caricatures about what picking one box over the other says about the individual voter as a person.
Anyway, there's my piece. Happy to answer anyone's Qs to the best of my ability and knowledge - I studied the circumstances around the 2016 vote in some detail a few years back for reasons I can't get into, so I might know a thing or two? - in the hope that, maybe(?), we can start to get over some of the assumptions that underlie the stereotype of what a 'Brexiteer' looks like, thinks, believes, etc.
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And strange enough, some of these people managed to persuade others to follow their political ideas despite the obvious fact it wasn't in their own benefit.
This sentence jumped out at me. I get the impression that you are using "benefit" in a narrow, economic sense. I had the feeling in 2016 from those that I spoke to about it that people were generally well informed about the upcoming vote, and were carefully - as carefully as anyone considers any particular voting decision, anyway - weighing up their choice. The economic costs/benefit discussions were going on over drinks, around dinner tables, etc, and were just one aspect of a debate we were having.
As for your comments about 'class', well while I wouldn't call myself working class today, I'm definitely from that background, being the first person from my UK-side of the family to attend university. My recollection from discussions with my 'working class' cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents, was that they were critically assessing both sides of the arguments that were being had in the media between the two campaigns. (One thing going for the UK working class, in my experience at least, is that they have an excellent nose for bullshit.)
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@EdH Well written and I appreciate it. It’s an Interesting take that I have not explored and will take the time to do so. Thank you!
We all have to remember that this forum is an open community where everyone can contribute their thoughts and ideas be it like minded or opposing in nature.
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I have no preconceptions/views about what a Brexiteer looks like, and I have many friends who voted to leave.
But, I have yet to see anything good come out of it for the UK or the EU (I am happy to be told what they are to give me some balance). And selfishly it has fucked our European business up so badly, that we seriously thought long and hard about whether we could continue doing business in the EEC (and in fact, many small companies on both sides of the channel have stopped shipping across the channel). As it is, we did eventually decide to weather the storm, but our profitability on European sales has plummeted, and our customers in Europe have a significantly worse user experience than prior to Brexit.
It now takes longer and costs more for us to ship something to Calais than it does to New York.
And on another selfish point, I am really pissed off that I can no longer spend more than 90 days out of 180 days in the EEC.
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I get the impression that you are using "benefit" in a narrow, economic sense.
Not really, it was quite openly said, but what I mean is more a benefit not only on economic issues, but also social and cultural. The growing-closer of the different nations on the continent during my lifespan has given us not only a better economic situation, but also social and cultural improvements that were to the benefit of the most. Somebody from the AfD would certainly talk different, and I know it's still quite vague what I'm saying here. But with all respect and love I have for the UK and it's people, I think it would benefit from more mingling, get rid of the class system that is (sorry IMO) outdated and detrimental. Only also my impression from (certainly much less talking to Brits before the Leave than you must have had) was not (again sorry) that 'people were generally well informed about the upcoming vote, and weighing up their choice'. IMO there was also a lot of nationalism going on.
@EdH after all please remember this is a foreign language to me, not always easy to find appropriate words. Perhaps we can discuss this on our next meeting in more detail.
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@EdH Thanks for your comprehensive write-up and the detailed explanation of you reasons for voting to leave.
I'd disagree with you in that I think the discussion around Brexit was never that nuanced to begin with. Over time, the little nuance that was there initially was replaced by emotions and opinions with little to no basis in facts. From talking to friends and relatives I also didn't get the impression that they had given as much attention to the pros and cons of being a part of the EU. (On a sidenote - this whole idea of "taking back control" or giving power to the people again seems to have conveniently gone out of the window, as neither Liz Truss nor Rishi Sunak were actually elected to be PM. But that's a separate discussion).
Regardless of one's opinion on the matter, it's done now and everyone has to deal with it. The thing that pisses me off the most is that all those muppets who campaigned for leave apparently never believed that they were going to win because there was no plan in place and they just fucked off after the fact.