Unpopular opinions
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…and that's what I would pay for Viberg too
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I get that a price/ cost argument could be made for just about everything we're into, and that most of the time it's all down to individual tastes and circumstance etc..,
Where Red Wing piss me off if that they are now wanting the high end mark up of other brands without upping their game. Basically, pay me more for producing the same thing, well errrrr….no.
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It's my opinion that Red Wing abuses it's position with their pricing. As the defacto #1 boot company I think their prices reflect what they can get away with charging, not quality, man hours, or number produced. The whole business model has been franchised and gimmicked to maximize that ability. Thorogood and Chippewa both achieve a similar boot, usually for less.
As far as cutting cost by searching for better deals, shouldn't everyone be doing so with everything? While there are certainly cases where one wants to support a company to the fullest extent. When one is purchasing a mass produced piece, 9 of 10 times a company like Red Wing has already made their money and the vendor slaps MSRP on them. It all eventually becomes about profit margin when the game is rigged top to bottom like this.
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Case in point:
Whites Bounty Hunters made with a choice of Chromexcel, dress or oiled leather with a huge variety of sole and hardware configurations - £220 plus £50 shipping.
Red Wing Beckmans - £285
Why?
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I don't see how these market economies are in any way "rigged." This is pure Adam Smith…
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Because they can…
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^^^Viberg also increased in price and I don't think they increased in quality (in all honesty, maybe it wasn't possible at all to increase in that point).
But when you also consider that they don't offer the custom option anymore, they decreased in the service (for some).Re: Red Wing…when did they increase they price by that much? I bought my first Engineers probably 4 years ago in the UK and the price after conversion was 170 €.
My second pair was from eBay which I scored for 160 €, retail price was 320 € as it was a Japanese special Ed.
So I think they should/could run in the 200-250 € range which I could justify...My pair of Grenson I got @50% (which was still 150 €) are still overpriced at that price point when you just take a look at the "leather" they use...
PS: sorry for using €-currency. It's easier to deal with it for me
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I don't own White's, Viberg or other highend boots (yet), but I must take a stand for Red Wing. I know that they got pretty Mainstream the last years, are available in a lot of stores and appeal to the typical vintage clothes afficionado that got so hip the last years. This seams to make them less appealing to some, but that should affect other clothing brands equally (also IH is no longer just for the well-informed Insider).
This said, I own 5 pairs of Red Wings, they all got hard wear over the last years in every season (some more, some less) and I had not a single issue with one of them. Totally worth 200-300€ IMO.
I couldn't justify White's so far: accounting the risk of tax and that they don't fit I didn't take the plunge yet. Vibergs prices are totally out of my league and I don't like them that much neither.
I like the idea of doing a custommade order at White's sometime, but until then, Red Wings serve me just fine.
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Honestly, still not seeing a reason why people pay more for Red Wings than they would for Whites (apart from the tax thing which can really sting).
B_F, most popular Red Wing models have seen a 50% price hike in the last 4 years. I paid £145 for my Gentleman Travellers from American Classics 4 years ago, the equivalent boot (with a worse sole) is now £289.
I'm not knocking how they wear at all, just their inflated price when you position them at the side of other (better?) boots. Maybe Whites should have a price rise?
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When Red Wing controls the product from top to bottom, when they eliminate any competitive market for their product, that's pretty rigged. By doing so they can and have set prices where they want and you'll either pay it, go without, or suffer the consequences for going outside their approved method for acquiring their product. This is a market, but it is rigged beyond a doubt to make sure they maximize profit above all else, even when service and the product suffers. They have a right to do so no doubt, but I have the ability to call it what it is.
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Just for info and only speaking about the prices in Germany, since they used and still do vary from country to country. I bought my first pair of 875s around 15-16 years ago and they were 479 DM (around 240 Euro), a pair of 875s cost today 279 Euro (official retail). So it really is not that much of a hike at least for Germany.
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^^^ I know what you mean. Still, White's that I can try on in Germany cost me approx. twice as much as RW (500-600€). White's that I have custom made in the US are a good deal, but there's always the risk of taxes and that they don't fit right. Maybe I should just take the plunge and risk it, but the likelihood that I end up with a price like the german retail price is pretty high.
And that makes White's 2x as expensive as RW, while I think they are not 2x as good (lifespan only).
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@Max:
And that makes White's 2x as expensive as RW, while I think they are not 2x as good (lifespan only).
(Lifespan only) buying Levis at thrift stores is many times better than Iron Hearts.. Iron Hearts are still very worth having though. So are really top-end boots like White’s, Wesco, etc.
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Look, we can criticize Red Wing, and there's certainly room to do so, and I'm not a Red Wing fan per se (I do have one pair of true work boots of theirs, and love their socks) but I do have to defend capitalism and running a business… let's keep this conversation honest and realistic: the boot game is in no way rigged, there's no conspiracy or government cronyism giving these guys some kind of unfair competitive advantage. Leveraging success that you've earned isn't "rigged." Their being overpriced is mutually exclusive to their unfairly extinguishing competition. If they were leveraging their assets to have artificially low pricing in order to destroy smaller rivals, I would concede that they were engaging in anticompetitive and possibly unfair business tactics. They're doing the opposite. They are charging a premium, because they can command it, and driving some enthusiasts TO these smaller brands. RW is going to be a gateway boot for a lot of White's, Wesco, Nick's, OSB, and Viberg owners, I am sure.
You'd better believe Iron Heart controls their product from top to bottom too, moreso than RW, and are trying to control ever more of their value chain (Giles has talked about in-housing more manufacturing operations here before), and they'd be fools not to. Same with Red Wing. In fact, they were better when they had MORE control over their product, i.e. when they didn't outsource production. I don't want to buy from people who don't want to control their product top to bottom, because that means something is wrong. They don't care enough. But even RW's own distribution channels heavily rely on franchising, not wholly-owned brick and mortars, and they sell through non-franchised third parties as well, so the "top to bottom" thing doesn't hold water by any definition. And there are tons of bootmakers out there at all conceivable price points, so it's not like they've cornered the market on boots. I'm guessing Timberland outsells them by a hefty margin. Maybe Frye too. They're just popular, like Harley is. And they can leverage the benefits of that popularity, which they earned; their daddy didn't give it to them, this is a business that's been at it for a long time and is now enjoying the benefits. That's capitalism, and I'm happy for their success story. If you're a boot enthusiast who goes for other brands, you should be too, because it keeps people's attentions off them.
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^ You expend far too much time and effort considering the minutiae of everything McL.
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^ You expend far too much time and effort considering the minutiae of everything McL.
Yeah and some of us aren't that big a fans of capitalism… We're €uropeans innit...
waves his red flag and gets out of here
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This would be way too long to properly respond, but I have to disagree with the assertion that IH and Red Wing share any similarities besides a desire to control how their product is distributed. Most markets are rigged, completely and wholly. They are by design meant to ensure perpetual debt and many "products" are little more than monetization or collateral of said debt. RW pricing and their ability to stay competitive directly relates to how much debt as a company they can keep in perpetual motion. While IH may well have it's own debt footprint, limited runs, the manufacturing process, and several examples I've seen here as it relates to their business tell me that continuous debt cycles aren't part of the process.
You may not see things like direct subsidies to companies like RW, but they are a great example of corporate debt and how it relates to fractional reserve banking when it comes to the boot game. Most of the interest from which is funneled to the consumer by both the banks and the companies themselves, often through twisted means. If this isn't bad enough the whole ball of debt wax is loaned back to you by printing money at a negative and endlessly monetizing losses, either by inflation, taxation, or the latest bubble that swallows untold amounts of wealth.
We often agree on a lot, but this is one area where I am going to have to disagree. Make no mistake, I can say clearly it's not always the fault of a business that they get sucked into the cycle. But please, let's stop referring to it as a open or free market, it's a system of debt slavery, turning the populace into little more than labor to constantly feed it.
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Next: whilst traditionally there is a belief that the Germans lack a sense of humour I think we're seeing the US of A make a grab for the crown here
Rafa, as a half kraut, half yank you are officially the worlds most humourless person
