Samurai Jeans
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^ that is an over simplification. It happens without washing too as wear will also drag the twill in the direction it wants to go in regardless. The level of sanforisation plays a role in how much leg twist you get as well.
The issue here is that it is more prevelent in some types of denim than others. RHT, fully sanforised denim displays very little to no leg twist compared with left hand twill and raw denims for example.
My 25oz XHS are well worn and washed and display no visible leg twist. Same with my old 21oz pairs. Both my UHR’s have some (the 888’s quite a lot given how new they are and the fact that they haven’t seen water after the initial soak/wash). My relatively new 19oz LHT are already starting to display some turn.
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^ that is an over simplification. It happens without washing too as wear will also drag the twill in the direction it wants to go in.
The issue here is that it is more prevelent in some types of denim than others. RHT, fully sanforised denim displays very little to no leg twist compared with left hand twill and raw denims for example.
My 25oz XHS are well worn and washed and display no visible leg twist. Same with my old 21oz pairs. Both my UHR’s have some (the 888’s quite a lot given how new they are and the fact that they haven’t seen water after the initial soak/wash). My relatively new 19oz LHT are already starting to display some turn.
Do you know why left hand twill would twist more than right hand twill? I would think that all other things being held constant, the amount of twist is independent of the weave direction.
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Do you know why left hand twill would twist more than right hand twill? I would think that all other things being held constant, the amount of twist is independent of the weave direction.
I'm not sure it does, but I've read that the direction of the weave in RHT is diagonally upwards and from left to right while the direction in LHT is diagonally downwards from right to left. This is going to affect the tension in the weave and the way the constructional seams contain it. This is also the reason why the left leg of RHT jeans see more leg twist than the right.
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I wouldn't say that LHT twists more than RHT. It definitely twist into the other direction but the amount of twist has nothing to do with RHT or LHT.
To eliminate leg twist you can have broken twill denim or the denim is skewed.
I think heavier denim tends to twist less than lighter denim (at least my observation).
A brand with extreme twisting is Resolute but also Warehouse show a good amount. I have seldomly seen Iron Heart or Samurai Jeans with a lot of leg twist.
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I wouldn't say that LHT twists more than RHT. It definitely twist into the other direction but the amount of twist has nothing to do with RHT or LHT.
Amended my post to say that I'm not certain either, but I've read that. I know that IH 19oz LHT displayed a lot of skew and leg twist, but I think that was due to the way Haraki-san designed the fabric. It certainly goes in the other direction as you say. Broken twill is at any rate designed to eliminate the issue.
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Do you know why left hand twill would twist more than right hand twill? I would think that all other things being held constant, the amount of twist is independent of the weave direction.
I'm not sure it does, but I've read that the direction of the weave in RHT is diagonally upwards and from left to right while the direction in LHT is diagonally downwards from right to left. This is going to affect the tension in the weave and the way the constructional seams contain it. This is also the reason why the left leg of RHT jeans see more leg twist than the right.
Again, I don't see the relation between weave direction and tension. Of course, the twist will be in the other direction, but the right leg on RHT should be like the left leg on LHT. I've also read people claiming that LHT is softer but I also have no idea why that would be the case.
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Lack of twist with XHS is of little relevance since it's sanforized fabric.
The left leg selvedge line on my 24oz Samurais points almost directly forward and it has been like that since the first initial soak+wash; oversimplified as it might have been, the point of my earlier post was that mentioning leg twist/lack there of as a variable related to the quality of the product is wrong.
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Lots of articles online explaining the softness, a few mentioning extra skew. Have a Google.
Several years ago I spent lots of time searching for a definitive answer and couldn't. I just checked again and most web sites simply repeat what they found by googling. Something like "some people find it's softer". This is a classic case of regurgitating knowledge without having first-hand experience in denim production.
From what I understand, LHT and RHT use yarns twisted in opposite directions, so that variable should not be important. If you run your loom from left to right instead of right to left, then the tension of the warp and weft should be the same for both cases. If you use different tensions for RHT and LHT then of course you will get different characteristics, but you will also get different characteristics if you use different tensions for different versions of RHT.
If you have a link to a satisfactory explanation, please let me know. As I said, this is something I've been pondering for years.
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Are you sure that manufacturers use yarns twisted in different directions for LHT and RHT? Because that would make a difference- if the direction of the skew in the weave pulls in the same direction as the twist in the yarns (like RHT using Z twist yarns), it tightens them and makes for a "harder" fabric. If the skew and the twist go in opposite directions, then the yarns tend to unravel (like LHT using Z twist yarns), which makes the fabric "softer". But using S twist yarn in LHT denim is, as you point out, functionally equivalent to using Z twist yarn in RHT denim.
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Are you sure that manufacturers use yarns twisted in different directions for LHT and RHT? Because that would make a difference- if the direction of the skew in the weave pulls in the same direction as the twist in the yarns (like RHT using Z twist yarns), it tightens them and makes for a "harder" fabric. If the skew and the twist go in opposite directions, then the yarns tend to unravel (like LHT using Z twist yarns), which makes the fabric "softer". But using S twist yarn in LHT denim is, as you point out, functionally equivalent to using Z twist yarn in RHT denim.
I'm not sure and this is the kind of thing I'm trying to figure out. What you say makes sense.
The only link I found talking about both twist and twill is here: http://blog.londasfiles.com/denim-facts/
It says z-twist with s-twill and s-twist with z-twill. -
Lack of twist with XHS is of little relevance since it's sanforized fabric.
Unwashed though. And some sanforised denim will display leg twist. You’re right of course, with regards to quality, that is irrelevant. My point was that wear will play as much of a role as washing, if not more.
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Lots of articles online explaining the softness, a few mentioning extra skew. Have a Google.
This is a classic case of regurgitating knowledge without having first-hand experience in denim production.
I think you’re right about that.
That being said, I read something explaining why it is softer on Blue Owl’s site it also had a detailed explanation of the differences between lht and rht. Have a butchers there.
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The only link I found talking about both twist and twill is here: http://blog.londasfiles.com/denim-facts/
It says z-twist with s-twill and s-twist with z-twill.Interesting. I've never seen twill direction labeled S or Z before, just left or right. Seems like that adds an unnecessary layer of confusion, but then textiles/sewing/garment making seems almost perversely complicated and contradictory, so I guess that isn't surprising.
As for what type of yarn gets used for denim weaving most commonly thought the industry, well, that's beyond my meagre knowledge. I suspect that it depends on manufacturer preferences, and that is basically a black hole of information.
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I bought a pair of 25oz samurais in august nice jeans and all…lnext time im going to spend the extra $ and go with IH. There is already threads breaking in a few spots and the leg twist annoyed the shit out of me for the first few months, other than that they are pretty decent.
Leg twist is what happens when you wash raw denim, regardless of the brand.
I have had at least 8 pairs of raws…3 were unsanforized... havent experienced the twist until this pair of samurais. I also heard that this wasn't an issue with IH denim. Guess i was misinformed.
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@BD81 I wouldn’t say you where misinformed. To be clear, most IH denim is sanforised and sanforised denim has a much lower tendency to leg twist. So that is probably the basis of what you heard. This is certainly true of the 21oz and 25oz.
The one truly raw (loomstate) denim that IH do, the UHR definitely displays some leg twist. Pretty much all raw denim will twist to a degree, because it lacks the stabilisation sanforising gives a fabric.
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Cool. Thanks. I will keep that in mind for the next pair. It actually doesn't bother me like it did at first. I think it looks kind of cool now. I would like to avoid it in the future though.
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If both edges twisted either towards the front or back it might be another story. I know that isn't possible but whatever… just saying.
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The fabric on the SExIH 21oz LHT Grey Weft (SelfEdge/Iron Heart collab) is also loomstate IIRC ("raw") and left hand twill and I got a very noticeable amount of leg twist on them after the first soak.
