Lifter problems
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Heya @neph93 ignore me if you already know this but while it's not going to fix your shoulder, the right bench press technique can keep you from further aggravating it. I forget if the 5x5 guy goes into this, but it took me too long to find the "proper" bench press technique that protects your shoulders while still allowing you to take the bar down to your chest.
It involves squeezing your shoulder blades together, arching your back, and using leg-drive. You can see it in this video here:
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Thanks @Paul9221 yeah I do that. The problem with the shoulder is that is is totally screwed [emoji1]
I first dislocated it when I was 18 and didn’t get any help for it. It has since popped out twice and the last time was a doozy. All this means that the I have scarring around the joint and torn muscle fibres that have grown back too thick.
The doctor calls it a “minor instability” because the shoulder still works and is relatively stable, but most repeated movement causes inflammation, and when it is under duress it is worse.
I’m looking at localised inflammation and discomfort with any strength training program. The trick is not to aggravate it to the point where I can’t lift at all due to pain or swelling.
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@Appfaff When you were running the gym, what did you guys coach for working around injuries?
Knee and Back problems (I have both) are always the biggest obstacles for strength training. While there is a ton of research that shows "unassisted" (no belt, no wraps, no sleeves) is the best way for your body to build up natural strength, balance, and mobility - I found the adaptation benefits of strength training with aid (Belts for squats, dead, presses) and knee wraps and sleeves for squats/lunges, etc outweighed the negatives. On the same realm, a legit weightlifting shoe (Sorry, the powerlift are not a true lifter show, as the heel is not elevated enough) is the single most important feature for a solid foundation, and assistance with mobility at the knee and ankle joint, while also allowing the hip to be placed in the best position for an upright toro in a high bar placed back squat (Same is true for front squats, etc).
If I am squatting about 65%, I have on sleeves or wraps, and most likely a leather belt. If I am doing heavy dynamic lifts from the floor (Cleans or clean pulls) I have a soft belt I wear.
As for shoulder issues and bench pressing - it's almost insanely common for guys after 30 to have labrum tears, and bench presses (especially heavy dumbbell presses) are actually quite dangerous. I moved most of people to strict/shoulder presses first - it helps with midline stablization, shoulder stability, and can be done with either a barbell or dumbbell safely. It's also a great way to learn glute activation and learn how your hip joints and glutes can work in union.
Long story short, injuries might keep you from being a "pure" lifter, especially if you have goals of increasing weight, but in order for strength training (in my opinion) to have real benefits, you have to tax the central nervous system in some form.
Hope that helps!
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@Appfaff Thank you. So you don't recommend the Adipower? I thought that it was the standard in strength training. (May have misinterpreted this).
Thank you for also confirming the use of aids (belt, straps, etc). I often start running them at 70% but when I was younger, I just "Gripped it and ripped it". The joints pay the price now for that stupidity.
Thankfully my back is still in good shape, but the shoulder's have payed the price…
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@goosehd - the Adipower (https://www.roguefitness.com/adidas-adipower-weightlifting-ii-shoe-mens-wild-moss) is the Olympic shoe, and a great option. The heel is a full 0.75-1" I believe. The foam bottom powerlift (https://www.roguefitness.com/adidas-powerlift-4-mens-core-black-solar-gold) is a .35-.5" heel I believe and a "circuit" shoe that I do not recommend for optimum stability and mobility improvements - however, it is a massive improvement over a traditional sneaker or running shoe, so a nice place to start for some.
I wore multiple versions of the Adipowers and found them to be less than ideal for me (too much flex in the forefoot - meaning my tight hamstrings were no match to inevitable heel raise). The Nike Romeleo has been my go to for when I was lifting competitively (olympic lifting), and I continue to wear them for back and front squats - KB squats, I just wear trainers, as I can keep my torso up, and my hips don't tuck as much with the weight lower on my chest.
In terms of "lifting aids" the opinions are all over the board. a licensed PT will probably tell you now to use them, but from a bone density, muscle strengthening, and overall adaptation standpoint, you will not get stronger lifting light weights - you gotta push it a bit. However, this can be done in terms of both absolute and relative intensity. Absolute is weight, relative is speed/volume. I train with a mixture of both, but these days, lean towards relative - I do not bench heavy - but I bench high reps (My favorite is 21-15-9, increasing weight between sets, and doing a pulling movement between sets - KB High Pulls are my fav). I shoulder press high weight, low reps (relative to my max). I deadlift moderate weight, medium reps (and always incorporate midline work in between my sets of deadlifts, which I think keeps me safe as it heightens my sensitivity in that area.
I had been back at a CrossFit Gym for the past 7 months, but my routine and schedule have kept me from going, so I am returning to my local globo set up next week. I'll do my best to share some of the things I do and see if it helps people!
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@Appfaff Thank you! The 21-15-9 is new to me. What percentages (55-65-75) are you running for the bench? I am afraid I would gas out before I could finish all of the reps, but might be something worth looking into…
When I was lifting in high school, no one had lifting shoes (except chucks or wrestling shoes). For a heel lift we used a 2x4 under the heel or some type of block. It was the first thing I thought of when @Alex posted the pictures of the different wedges.
Please keep us up to date when you get back into the gym.
I always find this as great motivation to keep pushing myself.
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will do @goosehd - 21-15-9 is a good rep scheme. For something like bench, I would go 40-50-60% with like a 1:4 work:rest interval or an opposing movement worked in. It's a great dynamic day.
Another good one.. 100 back squats, see how many times you have to set the bar down. Start with 75#, then as you can limit your breaks to 4-5 at most, add weight
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Very respectable! With the prior knee injury are you going ATG (below parallel) or higher? Any input from your doctor on range of motion? Curious…
Forgot to answer this, sorry.
I am trying to hit that sweet spot between breaking parallel and rounding the lower back at the (ahem) bottom of the lift that gives the dreaded butt wink. I feel like it is going well and again this is a great thing with a programme that has Squats in every work out, starts light and encouraged slow steady progress.
But the short answer is yes, ATG it is. My injury is a torn PCL, so stable, vertical flexion/extension is not a problem. It is lateral movement that is scary. No skiing, motorcycle riding, football or squash.
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I am trying to hit that sweet spot between breaking parallel and rounding the lower back at the (ahem) bottom of the lift that gives the dreaded butt wink.
While I am far from an expert, I have always believed that this should be the goal for all squatters. Keeping Lumbar Extension should be top priority - as long as you are able to facilitate re-engagement of the hams and glutes by going low enough, ATG should be a secondary goal only after load is able to be maintained with accurate Lumbar ext.
Also, to follow up with @goosehd - I got back in the globo gym this week and it hit me how totally different my body has reacted to more isolated movements as opposed to totally dynamic as I was doing at the CrossFit for the last 7 months. I really think there is value in both styles of movements.
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@Appfaff @neph93 Good discussion, I'll chime in here as well, and I know it's going to turn into a screed but I pretty much lived and breathed squatting for 2 years, and coached as my job for quite a while as well (which in a transient city like Baltimore often meant fixing other people's bad coaching)…
Regarding the so-called "butt-wink" I think it's important to remember that lumbar extension =/= over-extension. In younger trainees, who were told over and over about lumbar extension and the perils of the dreaded butt-wink, I often saw them focusing so much on arching the back that they went into over-extension. The irony here is that over-extension will get pulled out by the hamstrings as you descend to parallel, and this return to neutral is confused for "butt-wink." If the trainee is really unlucky, they have a novice coach that will point it out, and they'll over-extend harder, and this battle will continue until they have a complex about it and they're telling their therapist about their incurable butt-wink and how they're pretty sure they'll never go to heaven.
It's also worth remembering that most people (who can afford coaching at least) are desk-jockeys and have an anterior pelvic tilt due to sitting so much. This means that what they think is neutral is already over-extension. So these people's squats will look butt-winky until they get that sorted. In my gym we forbade coaching with the term butt-wink because we found it unhelpful as it focuses on the wrong issue; butt-wink is a symptom not a problem. Just because you can see the symptom of anterior pelvic tilt while squatting doesn't mean it's a problem for squatting only and certainly doesn't mean it's going to be fixed during squatting.
Now, an excessively flexed spine IS bad, especially under load, but if you teach someone to squat properly you're not going to see them revert back to the dog-poo squat, since it's not how they learned it in the first place. You mainly see this in people who were shown a squat for 5 minutes and then asked to do 1,000 of them as fast as possible.
Parallel or below is safer for the knees than higher than parallel, which I can explain but will avoid putting a screed within a screed.
It's my experience that most people can squat to parallel with a decent spinal position and knees tracking in line with the toes if they're taught how and allowed to focus on form until it becomes second nature. Speed and weight make focusing on form difficult, so pull back on those if things are breaking down. Yes there are special cases of injuries, surgeries, or extreme body proportions, but most people are just plain normal no matter how much they'd love to convince me or you they're just so darn special. I did once have a client who was 6'3" but was shorter than his 5'2" wife while seated, this is not an exaggeration. He had some sort of growth plate anomaly and his limbs and digits were extremely long. He could easily hook grip the 2" axle bar, for instance. His squats definitely looked strange but he managed (and he played rugby so he never tried to convince me he needed special consideration).
Not saying anyone else here said anything inaccurate, just wanted to add my thoughts on it.
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@tvenuto I really appreciate your "screed". Thank you.
Having read and re-read it I took some time to check my form without weight, with just the bar, and under light weight (50kg). I'm happy with my stance (within shoulder width), my foot position (very slightly flared), and that my knees are tracking where they should.
I am certainly not over extending, but the aforementioned sweet spot where my butt starts being drawn in towards the back of my knees is vanishingly small, and only just after I break parallel. It is a little frustrating, as I'm enjoying the how low I can go (sing it), and I am finding it comfortable, but there is no doubt that it is a bit like a dog squeezing one out.
I tried different ways of dropping down to see what worked but regardless, at about one cm after breaking parallel my butt starting curving under… We have PT's at my gym, but I'm not convinced they are up to the job of fixing me
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Well if I were coaching you and you could get to parallel without issue I'd say don't worry about pushing for deeper. Unless you want to compete in the olympic lifts I'm not sure a super deep squat buys you all that much.
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Ha yea I don’t judge a man for his calves but with that upper body his kneecaps should be depressions! #weoutsquattedthor
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Even his own brother dragged him.
That's so off, I thought it was Photoshopped to be a joke at first.
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Buddy ask anything you want. I can generally give you solid advice..i was coached by very competend people that really have a clue. National programs are very well funded. My background is in Olympic weightlifting. 2 disciplines. The snatch and the clean and jerk. Those 2 lifts are the competition lifts but we do a lot of accessories to complement. Tons of squats front and back and a lot of pulling and upper back strengthening. The only thing we dont do is bench press and arms. For upper boddy we do standing shoulder pressing.
But please feel free to ask. I can help with programming or whatever general questions people may have. -
@yannis Impressive resume! Do you still practice the Olympic lifts now that you are older? How has your training evolved with age (higher reps, lower weight or vice versa)? Do you lift for strength, conditioning, or some hybrid of the two?
Nearing 50, I am very concerned about joint health and want to keep lifting for as long as possible. I really would appreciate your insights.
